GL5 Forum

Hi all,

You should all recall that in the latest edition of Turnout, Doug Hewson wrote an article expressing his views on the way that the GL5 rallies have been run, and I supplied an answer. I thought that this would open the floodgates and that I'd be inundated with responses, as we both left ourselves open to further criticism. Well, if I said that I'd had no replies I would be exaggerating, but only just. I've had one phone call, one e-mail and 3 letters, and most of these ended up rambling on about the Gilling Mainline rallies rather than the GL5 ones.

So, the big question is, DOES ANYBODY CARE?

Whether you are, or are not, happy with the way the rallies are run, move yourself and do something about it, write to the committee, write to me the magazine editor, or respond to this plea. We really do try to run the club for the benefit of all, but if YOU don't tell US what you want, you won't get it!

Dave Noble, editor

Dave,

I agree - we're all apathetic.

Well not really. I think for the most part we are satisfied with these events. Look around at club open days and rallies and you will see there are very few visitors compared with a few years ago. Remember Blackgates where you were lucky if you got half an hour on the track? Remember Eggborough where you used to have to book your slot? These venues struggle to attract people now, as do most of the raised track events. My home club is over the moon if we get two or three visitors on an open weekend, yet I understand the Main Line Rally is close to being over subscribed every time, despite there being enough turns for more than forty locos. The GL5 event is equally popular, so there would appear not to be a problem.

I have to agree with Doug that the rule book isn't being observed at either event as well as it might be. GL5 rallies in theory should be right up to the mark since the operation of miniature trains in a prototypical way was the reason the organisation was formed. It would seem that the Main Line Rally fulfills that function, so the GL5 rally was made to be a little less formal, perhaps to help less railway knowledgeable members get some 'Main Line' experience without falling foul of the rules.

If we want the rules to be better observed at these events then we perhaps need to employ someone to be a 'policeman', just to remind people that the tail lamp is mandatory and the headlamps must be correctly placed, the drivers should whistle before moving, that signalmen should not throw the boards to danger as a train approaches except in a dire emergency, that there should only be one shunter giving signals to the driver, and the wagons should be in the correct order in the train etc etc.

I could go on about when trains can be propelled or the procedure for recovering a failed locomotive, or that locomotives must have an inspection by a fitter before leaving the shed, but the vast majority of rules in the book, whilst applicable in certain circumstances if we were strictly observing them, would become tedious and time consuming and ultimately such a regime would drive people away. After all the thing we most want to do is to have any enjoyable day out, not fill in forms. Our trains run too frequently to have to wait for bureaucracy.

I think I'd like to see the visible rules better observed, such as lamps, whistles, speed and the like, and if a few more people were to be more observant and set an example and 'help' those who transgress, then things might move towards Doug's ideal. Perhaps Doug could prepare an abridged version of the rulebook containing just the rules we can reasonably apply to our operations, and maybe the members will debate the adoption of that.

I have to say that our members aren't very vociferous on this forum. There are long periods without new posts. Is it that all our members know everything and don't need to ask for help, or are they too embarrassed to ask? Do they not want us to know about their projects, or workshops or events, experience. Is there actually anybody out there?

Come on guys - we all want to hear from you.

Best Regards

Eddie

I think I have been slow to respond as I don't have particularly strong views on this as I have enjoyed all of the rallies I have participated in, both GL5 and Mainline.

I agree with some of the issues Doug raised such as using lamps correctly, watering only at columns, coaling only on shed, correct handsignals and so on but I do think we should produce a basic rulebook relating to operational matters to instruct participants on what is expected as even those with knowledge of these matters might not all work to the same big railway rulebook as each other. Lamp codes varied amongst companies and eras, whistling is another area of variation, those of us working on the big railway today wouldn't sound the whistle before moving unless on a depot or in sidings but that isn't necessarily what others would expect at a GL5 event. These are the sorts of things we should be getting right, I remember being complemented when acting as shunter in a yard for giving clear, correct handsignals as the driver concerned said it made his job easier but I only knew them from volunteering on a full sized preserved railway.

I would not want a set of rules that tied down every aspect of an event such as insisting that we wear the correct overalls and hat, it should be encouraged but if it was a rule would we then have to bring a shunters uniform to change in to to work in the yards and a waitresses uniform to fetch the brews?

It is important for us to get the operational matters right by politely informing and educating those who transgress which is much easier to do if you have given out the required information beforehand.

I can't really comment on allocation of turns or their content for drivers as I haven't driven at a rally but from the yard perspective there should be something meaningful to do most of the time so the GL5 rally should have a simple timetable with objectives to achieve if the yard staff are to be entertained and the pilot not to sit around a lot of the time.

One thing I do like to see is trains running at appropriate speeds, it is a joy to see Steve Andrews or Peter Layfield plodding around with a long unfitted goods but I can appreciate it is not easy to do.

Regards
Richard

I read Doug's article and I have to admit at first reading I didn't distinguish between the GL5 rallies and the "mainline" rally. On first reading I thought Doug was suggesting the equivalent of "it's my ball and I'll take it somewhere else to play with it" but on re-reading it I can see it as more of an article to stimulate debate from our (I think) fairly contented-with-the-status-quo membership (or at least that how I interpret it!).

I have a good deal of respect for Doug as if it weren't for him I wouldn't be building wagons and I currently wouldn't be enjoying this aspect of Model Engineering. I thought that there would be enough comment from other people to negate the need for me to add any... but seeing as you said there hasn't been....

I joined the GL5 because it gave me a chance to get involved in running scale stock. I didn't think too much about the railway operational side of it because I'm too young to have seen the side of railway operations first-hand that I am modeling. I don't know half of the "rules" because I never saw them.

Having obtained a few back copies of Turnout I've seen some of the articles detailing railway operation, but for new members, how are they supposed to know? Each time I go to a mainline rally I see new people wanting to get involved, and one of the first things they all seem to be taught is the hand signal for getting a shunting locomotive to come towards you... shouldn't we be summarising all this for members in addition to our published standards all new members get?

Having said that I think we run a real risk of turning otherwise active members off. Will I get shunned because I haven't learned my whistle codes? Will I get shouted at because I don't have the correct lamp code... or worse, aren't dressed (at my own expense) in proper BR period regional drill?

What we (in my opinion) can't loose sight of is that this is all supposed to be FUN. Not having a running 5 inch gauge locomotive myself I help out where I can, but after a 3 hour shift as yard assistant I'd getting a bit tired, then only to be asked if I can do the same thing again directly after. What about all the guys with the locomotives? Are they exempt from the hard work (which should be enjoyable) in creating the railway scene? There is some indication in the article that the driver expects to turn up and find his train prepared - but if people aren't enjoying the experience because they've been told off for breaking the rules they never knew existed (eg marshalling barriers wagons) will we turn off valuable members? I have the greatest respect for all the ladies at Gilling who keep us all fed, it takes a lot of people doing a lot of behind the scenes work to just get to a situation where we can even start to emulate the scene Doug is talking about and we need their support.

I for one quite liked the low-key GL5 event because I didn't have to DO anything, I could then just enjoy seeing my model run (more wagons from me to follow hopefully!), and I was offered more than one drive. Last mainline rally Brent got me a drive in his usual style (one I've come to like and I can't imagine him without!), so maybe the GL5 should have a "run to rules" event and one slightly more relaxed. It's fine if it's "run to rules" if we all know what the rules are, and if we turned up on that basis that's what we expect!

If the GL5 is to become strictly only for persons that can afford the locomotives and the wagons to be able to do the mainline scene properly then maybe it's too elitist for me to be a member of?

...just a thought...

Looks like the forum is getting some dialogue on this 'formal' and 'informal' debate on GL5 events. I get the impression that I am not alone in thinking that whilst the mainline rally is an important part of the years events the rallies are considered by most to be a bit more of a FUN event.

We need to learn somewhere and where better than rallies where like minded people can help and nudge us in the right direction.

Being involved in organising the next rally I hope we can incorporate all that is good in our 'club' , good company, good steaming and lots of coal being burnt.

Nice to see that Dave's posting has got some replies. In answer to Richard's comment about elitism... no GL5 is not elitist, it is just a group of individuals who wish to run 5'' groundlevel trains in a prototypical manner. If you unsure about any spect of operation then please ask the likes of Doug, Ballen, Brent, Tim and they will willingly explain what you are not sure of, or will find a man who can. From my personal point of view I would like to see all events run in the same manner as the Mainline Rallies at Gilling, but would accept that maybe a slightly less intense timetable be used at GL5 rallies to enable newcomers a chance to 'get their feet wet' at a slightly slower pace, but still operating prtotypically.

Dave Harris wrote:Nice to see that Dave's posting has got some replies. In answer to Richard's comment about elitism... no GL5 is not elitist, it is just a group of individuals who wish to run 5'' groundlevel trains in a prototypical manner. If you unsure about any spect of operation then please ask the likes of Doug, Ballen, Brent, Tim and they will willingly explain what you are not sure of, or will find a man who can. From my personal point of view I would like to see all events run in the same manner as the Mainline Rallies at Gilling, but would accept that maybe a slightly less intense timetable be used at GL5 rallies to enable newcomers a chance to 'get their feet wet' at a slightly slower pace, but still operating prtotypically.

I don't actually think the GL5 is elitist, but just that we could regulate events too much for new (and younger) members. Doug, Ballan and Brent have all passed on information about mainline running whilst I've been at Gilling, but I think we need to look at summarising this information for new members *if* we expect people to use it.

Driver's helpfully get their lamp code on their running sheets. I'm leaning towards suggesting producing another sheet (or booklet!) for new members containing some (or all) of the following. Lamp Codes, (advanced: whistle codes, bell codes), marshalling instructions, shunting signals, advice on scale speeds, some basic train formation advice (barrier wagons, positioning of livestock, fitted/semi/unfitted classifications, gunpowder/oil/fuel). Most of which has appeared in Turnout before *if* you've been around long enough to have the back copies.

I do think that the GL5 needs both "formal" (run to rules) and "less formal" events.

I agree and in fact suggested that GL5/LMS/RSME produce such a booklet in a letter I sent to Dave for inclusion in the next issue of Turnout as a result of his response to Doug's letter in the last issue of turnout.

Often think its sad when a club or group of people start to suffer the effects of disagreement. These often seem to come about when strong personalities clash. The result can be a divide in the club to the detriment of the rest of us.

I have enjoyed for a number of years both RSME Mainline days and GL5 events. My first GL5 event was Ascot and the welcome was fantastic both from Ascot club and from GL5 members. Particularly, Martin Rant who was also driving a 15xx tank loco. That kind of introduction/welcome goes along way.

Whenever I attended one of these events, I am amazed at the knowledge that exists among members, it often leads to interesting debate/conversation. Take for example my first attempts at running Erimus for an afternoon. It felt like being thrown in the deep end. Trying to marshal a goods train realistically and often learning from my errors. Nothing wrong with that. And to be honest it’s just as well, for if Ii though I was amongst an elitist group where I was get criticised for my actions then I would sooner have stayed at home. Over the years my goods trains, I think (hope!) have become more prototypical. I also recall an explanation from one the RSME guys about a 'diagram' for the coaches. It showed which coach formed which train and from where it came and where it would go to. Very neat piece of paperwork.

But isn’t that it? The fact that its a gathering of like minded people enjoying each others company and in perusing the hobby we are learning all the time. It would be great to have a booklet that gives guidance on the subject and will make for interesting reading but how sad if a rule book should come about and go on to make things so pedantic the fun dies away. However, it does require a certain amount of input from the individual. I have been amazed how often I have come across people at Gilling for example who really haven’t a clue! They haven’t taken the time to walk the track to grasp the concepts of operation, let alone understand the signalling and what will be required of them. A successful event does require its participants to take some responsibility upon themselves otherwise the outcome will be inconvenience to others and will be at the expense of the rest of us in the form of a rule book !!

Well, after nearly a month and only 5 people actually commiting a response on this subject it would appear that Eddy is right .... we are apathetic! Dave and Doug, it appears that only a very small number of members care one way or the other! Perhaps its time for the committee to sort out a questionaire to be put in 'Turnout' and give every one a prepaid envelope to return it in.....then there is no excuse for members not to have their say and we will all know what we all want...or just how apathetic the membership is?! Also, maybe its time for the committee to actually put in print what they think GL5MLA should be doing and why and ask the membership if they agree?

quote Dave Harris "it would appear that Eddy is right .... we are apathetic!"

No Dave not apathy. They are quite happy with the event as it is. If they were not, they wouldn't take the trouble to come.

I look forward to the Main Line and the GL5. I'm always disappointed when I can't get to the GL5 when it's run in the south.

I re-read Doug's letter the other day and I do wonder what the problem is. Is it really about the rulebook or is it about running passenger trains with goods engines and expresses with branch line locos? GL5 lets the drivers do what the Main Line can't allow. I don't have a problem with that and it appears that most of the membership agrees.

And don't forget, the locos are only there to pull the trains. The rallys are really about the rolling stock and if the loco men only wanted the run out they could do that with live passengers on their club tracks.

I think lasts years GL5 rally was enhanced by the "trip engine" jobs, and the Main Line Rally could benefit from something similar, instead of the stand-by turns that didn't seem to be too popular.

Eddie

Eddyg, I think you are somewhere near the mark with your comments. From a purely personal point of view, and as i said in an earlier post, I joined because I was told at gilling 10years ago that the whole idea was to run prototypical trains as prtototypically as possible. Having been part of a group that did this in 4/7mm I was pleased when i was told that was what the mainline rallies, and GL5 was all about; and that includes using the correct type of loco for a given train, having standby turns, just as BR did, even if a loco crew sat around all day waiting for a failure, correct marshalling of trains etc. If the majority dont want to go to this level then the GL5 rally can 'dilute' the 'standards' a bit if it so wishes (up to a concensus of members attending) but I think the RSME rallies were and are organised to run as prototypically as possible, warts an all, and as I have I have said, I for one am happy with that standard but am happy to accept that if the majority of members at a GL5 rally wish to do something different the that is their choice.

Steady Dave ~ you'll end up with the job of putting a few notes together for the rest of us!

As I said before I quite like the sound of a guide to train formation along with the lamp codes etc. Make it pocket size and we can all carry it.

Correct loco for the train: Thats sometimes quite challenging. The yard master, if he has time, can seek out which loco is turning up for what train and hopefully form it accordingly along with an appropriate brake van.

One of the most challenging turns I had as a yard master was forming the fish van train. We had gathered all the vans together and then across two sidings preceded to sort them into braked and non braked. We did it just in time for the loco to arrive. Since then I have always made an effort to put braked stock behind the loco but its quite surprising how few of these vehicles exist.

One visit to Gilling I had the opportunity at the end of the day to take 10 of the mk1's for a run - which with a 1500 is hardly a passender train duty so I used a disc with a number 2 on it which I had copied from a Paddington photo of empty coaching stock movement. I thought that was quite appropriate!

I have refrained up to now from making any comments, being to heavily involved with the RSME side of either the GL5 events when held at Gilling and of course the Mainline Rallies.

The subject being GL5 events, it is very difficuly for people to not attach the Mainline rallies in the same breath. I can see the need for a simpler event, but even this appoach has its grumblers, and it could be considered as a training ground, but how many actualy use it as a stepping stone to more complicated things?

But from the small number of replies on this subject one thing that stands out is a need for a handbook that covers basic things. I agree with this as it would be useful for either GL5 events or Mainline Rallies, but who would write it and compile it?? A solution perhaps regarding distribution is for it to be (a) Placed on this website and (b) emailed to all members (c) with GL5's permission emailed to anyone attending Mainline Rallies.

In this way the standards could be raised a bit further. From my point of view as a resident signalman at Gilling the standards at either event are a lot higher than when we started, things flow a lot better and i dont get blinding headaches anymore!!

RSME last year produced a simple guide to the signals used at Gilling, this to be given to any driver who either didn't know or was unsure. So we need a couple of those who know(!) to get their heads together and produce guidance notes fast......

The drivers slips for the Mainline rallies now show the required headcode and speed of the train and basic train informatiom. Regarding speeds i don't know how we deal with that, having told someone that 30mph is approx walking speed (3mph) they then proceed to gallop along at a scale 80mph, the diesels being the main culprits for some reason. What the signal men do when reasoned conversation fails, is to stop them at every signal so they cant gallop, so if that happens to you, then you now know why. (its not that difficult to fit a speedometer to your driving wagon)

It was an interesting question about people coming with locos and do they help at rallies other than driving. All i can say is theres some that do and some that dont.....

GL5 like any society is a microcosm of the rest of the world 'you can only please some of the people some of the time'

Inreply to Bob. Yes I think you have hit the nail right on the head., and I agree with all of your comments. Some people you can not help.
Hope this gets on the site. I am only just into broad band so its all new,



Ballan Baker