Workbench: BR 21 ton hopper

[Richard Phillips]

Some of you might have seen the progress on Dave's kit at Gilling, so here are a few photos of it in construction.

[Dave Noble]

Lovely job Richard, just like the real thing, will be a pity to paint it.

I've restarted on mine, made a new body as the old one was just a trial from scrap pieces. Will post some pictures after the weekend hopefully.

Wonder how Paul is getting on with his.

[Richard Phillips]

Wonder how Paul is getting on with his.

That's Paul's chassis in the second photo in my living room/workshop, he mentioned something about needing more parts or something.... I'm sure the MOD and the milk tank will be keeping him busy.

My hopper is now boxed up for the move (probably next week), so the last bit of solder has now splashed on my carpet in that house. I've had enough of soldering for a while now, I think I prefer riveting!

You might be able to see my alignment pins in the side of the solebar in the last photo, they were knocked in - a tight fit, the body is still detachable at this stage.

[Dave Noble]

At last I've made some progress on my hopper.

Unlike Richard, I assembled mine by soldering the vertical corners of all four body panels together first, then bending them in and soldering downover. This may have been a mistake, as the opening for one of the bottom doors isn't as square as it should be, and the 3/32 alignment pins, don't. This requires some rethinking.

I did follow Richard's advice and used uncored solder and Baker's fluid. It works very well, much better than the cored solder which I used originally. Unfortunately, as you can see, it is very corrosive and everything eventually rusts.

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Richard used a small oxy/propane torch as his heat source, I used a 100 watt electric soldering iron. As you can see, I overdid it a bit with the amount of solder. I think this is because of the flux, being so corrosive, it eats away at the soldering iron bit very quickly. This means that the bit has to be reformed, and I was lazy and didn't keep a sharp point on it as I should. It soon ended up with a point of about 90 degrees, so that when it was run down a joint, it encouraged the solder to flow further than I wanted.

What I did get right was to tin all the joints before assembly. This helps a lot, and makes assembly quite quick and easy. You can see the tinning for the side stanchions below.

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I want to be able to rust this wagon after painting, so all surplus solder has to be removed. I was fortunate to be able to use a grit blaster. It was fairly slow and very dirty, but to see the surplus solder just "disappear" was brilliant. The joints are now much neater.

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Next, I will reform the soldering iron tip properly, and see if this produces finer fillets on the side stanchions.

[Richard Phillips]

Looks great! You seem to have gone for the "sawn off" handrail, a variation I wish I'd though of, it's probably easier. The one common thing about the handrails is they were virtually all bent in service I think!

I'm envious of how you've managed to get the corner so sharp, I'll have to do a bit of filling in some of the areas where the castellations come together. It seems you, like me, will have to drill a rivet out of one of the axleguards to get the brack rack support in.

My hopper is now in a box now travelling to it's new home, the pins should come out, and did help to keep the side stanchions in the right place for soldering.... please don't tell me they are in the wrong place!

I think the soldering iron wins out on neatness, although sometimes the solder seemed to flow right and quickly, and other times it didn't.

Be interested in how you get on with the side stanchions, I remember you saying you were going to tackle them a different way to my sub-assembly method!

[Eddyg]

I think you are all doing magnificently with your hoppers. I'm afraid my LNER 20 tonner is stagnating, since my locomotive building activity is taking all my time. I have done some work and have the wheel sets and axleboxes done as well as some other bits and pieces, which have been machined when set ups for the locos have been convenient for making wagon bits.

Soldering steel is not too tricky and you both look as if you have the technique sorted. One of my locos has a soft soldered steel cab, and has had for over 30 years, but escaping steam and condensation inside the cab ultimately penetrates the paint and starts corrosion, which gets under the solder and eventually breaks the joints. I've spent many happy hours scraping out the rust, re-soldering and repainting over the years. I often use cored solder with baker's fluid (Killed spirits they used to call it, but I can't remember how it's made - zinc in hydrochloric acid comes to mind), but like all soldering, cleanliness is next to godliness and is the secret of success. Once done of course the flux must be thoroughly cleaned off before applying paint, otherwise the corrosion will be built in and the joints will suffer.

One thought on the material was that tin plate would make soldering a lot easier and neater if a supply could be found of suitable gauge, (memories of making cake cutters at school) and this would make painting much easier. I can't say I've seen anyone advertising the stuff in recent years though, but I'm sure it must still be available.

I'm not sure if it was Richard or Paul who showed me the 21 Ton hopper at Gilling this year, but I have to thank whoever it was for the enlightenment on the hopper door gear. I had spent a lot of time trying to work it out, but the vehicles I was looking at at Shildon appear to have bits missing. I suspect the gear has been gas cut to release the doors to empty the wagon prior to consigning them to scrap and corrosion has done the rest. Anyway I know how it works now, so I can finish the drawings, when I get some time.

Keep up the good work, and remember you only need another 27 to make up a proper train for Steve's Q5!!

[Dave Noble]

With all this good weather we've been having, I've spent more time gardening than building the hopper, but now with the change, I've got the side stanchions on.

As suspected, reforming the soldering iron tip helped a lot, the soldered joints are generally much neater.

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I fitted the stanchions differently from Richard, though not as planned. Richard, I think, silver soldered each of his up as separate assemblies, then soft soldered each in place. I wasn't sure that I could keep them exactly the right shape as separate items, so intended to fix the body and underframe together, then build up each side stanchion in situ. Unfortunately, there just isn't enough room to get a big soldering iron into the small space by the longitudinals. I therefore kept the body removeable, but relocatable using a small block of brass at each end soldered to the end stanchion stay. A 10BA bolt from underneath keeps the parts together and lined up, you can see a block in one of the photos. Each stanchion was tacked in place (using uncored solder on the iron), then the body was removed and the joints fully formed (using cored solder fed into the joints). This worked fine.

21t 2, general view.jpg (29.45 KiB) Viewed 31073 times

All the stanchions are in place and I think all the soldering on the body is now finished, except for fixing to the underframe of course. Grit blasting is only partly done, but should get finished next week. I pickled the body first to try and get rid of some of the hidden rust and redissolve hidden Bakers Fluid, then after drying, started the grit blasting. Unfortunately, part way through blasting, the outlet hose came off the pot, and as it was next to me, and I was kneeling and only wearing shorts, it deskinned part of my calf, no comments necessary. In the ensuing lunge, I seem to have broken one of the end handrail stays off which makes me think that perhaps they should have an unprototypical bracket on the inside for strength.

21t 2, general view 2.jpg (34.37 KiB) Viewed 31073 times

You seem to have gone for the "sawn off" handrail, a variation I wish I'd though of, it's probably easier.

No, not really, realising that the side bracket for the end handrail would be vulnerable, I only fitted the short rail as a temporary measure to support it, though as I mentioned above, I still broke it off.

It seems you, like me, will have to drill a rivet out of one of the axleguards to get the brack rack support in.

Yes, quite right, I didn't spot that either.

One thought on the material was that tin plate would make soldering a lot easier and neater

Probably so, but it would also result in an unrusty wagon, and I think these wagons should have at least some rust on them.

[Eddyg]

Dave,

I always thought that models were built in ex works condition and then painted to look rusty. I suppose leaving them to rust saves a bit of work!!

My photo is of the 20 tonner at Shildon which is just a bit rusty, to the point where it wouldn't hold 20 cwt of coal let alone 20 tons. I guess that if they hadn't got it inside when they did there wouldn't have been a body by now. They also have a rebuilt 21 tonner there which is still parked outside. It is to be hoped they get it indoors soon.

Eddie

LNER 20T Hopper at shildon NRM.JPG (82.14 KiB) Viewed 30726 times

[Dave Noble]

I've made some more progress.

The door operating shaft brackets were etched in steel with the side stanchions, they just needed a bush and strip of steel soldering in, then shortening.

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The brake lever guards are a little different from normal because the bottom the two legs are not joined directly to each other, but are bolted around the stay. The bits were laser cut as a strip (I missed one of the holes out of the short bit) and after bending, silver soldered together. I was a bit anxious about the acute bend in the stay, but my little Warco bender did it with no trouble.

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As you can see, these bits have been added to the underframe. I've also added some more bracketry as pointed out by Richard, and other fixed bits.

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It's now ready to solder the body and underframe together, when this is done and cleaned up I'll feel I'm nearing the home straight.

[hudrail]

Get a move on then we can finnish my Milk Tankers before I leave Brent !

[Richard Phillips]

It's running now isn't it? Seen at Gilling in recently out-shopped paint! Mine looks like it's been in service for 30 years at the moment, it will rust away before I finish it!

[Eddyg]

Here's a photo to prove it.

Looks well.

's 21T Hopper Gilling August 2010.JPG (44.06 KiB) Viewed 30733 times

[Dave Noble]

I've just received this from Dave Smith in Australia.

"I've just discovered the GL5 Forum pages. Great stuff!

Re your comment about corrosion of your soldering bit when assembling that hopper wagon.

One wrinkle I know to prevent tip corrosion/erosion is to take out the tip, file it to the form required then give it a good coat of silver brazing alloy (silver solder), say 245 or 250 grade. This will give it an impervious "skin" that the soft solder flux cannot attack.
You will have to dress the bit back to bare copper first - the silver solder will not 'take' if there is any soft still about, but vice versa will!

I hope this helps - feel free to pass on."

Thanks Dave.

[Richard Phillips]

I was allowed out into the shed this weekend, so got my chassis up on it's wheels. It's been so long the chassis has started to rust...

[Eddyg]

Richard,
Good to see another hopper moving on. Here's the one I'm putting together from a Dave Noble kit:-

21T Hopper Frame.JPG (50.07 KiB) Viewed 30515 times

Should have read this thread again before riveting on the axleguards, I'll have a couple to take out now. In hind sight I would fix the axleguards before assembling the frame so that the formed heads are on the inside.

Eddie

[Richard Phillips]

Working on the doors, which I think are meant to simulate a pressing as the edge would probably have been folded down at the same time as well.

[Richard Phillips]

Not really getting anywhere fast at the moment, but little steps - I'm surprised all the lever guard parts line up, not because of the design, but because it was me making it. Dave gave me a handy little template for marking the bend lines.

Brake lever guard

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[Richard Phillips]

Seems that no one else is working on wagons! My progress has been slow, albeit with a burst of activity before the Bristol Model show, so the brakes are all but completed, with just a collar to turn and the hope I've silver soldered the brake arm in the right place.

Anyway, the doors, probably one of the more complex bits of this wagon you'll never see. Here is my door straight from the gas torch, not yet cleaned up. I have the feeling that if this wasn't a copy of full size practice the door would be a lot simpler in construction!

Hopper door, after soldering

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[Eddyg]

Richard,

You are not alone by any means. My 21T hopper will be completed soon. It is behind yours at the moment, but the intention is to make a push to have it complete by the end of October so as I can get back to loco building.
There was another one running and almost complete at the main line rally and Dave Noble's as well, so we should have three for the next rally at least.

When I have a moment to download some photos and reduce them I'll post them here.

There's a lot of work in those doors and I'm quite looking forward to making them. I'm guessing the apparent distortion in your photo is due to camera angle. You've made a neat job of all those small gussets and brackets. How did you keep them in place for soldering? Are they soft soldered?

Regards

Eddie

[Richard Phillips]

Richard,

You are not alone by any means. My 21T hopper will be completed soon. It is behind yours at the moment, but the intention is to make a push to have it complete by the end of October so as I can get back to loco building.
There was another one running and almost complete at the main line rally and Dave Noble's as well, so we should have three for the next rally at least.

When I have a moment to download some photos and reduce them I'll post them here.

There's a lot of work in those doors and I'm quite looking forward to making them. I'm guessing the apparent distortion in your photo is due to camera angle. You've made a neat job of all those small gussets and brackets. How did you keep them in place for soldering? Are they soft soldered?

Regards

Eddie

Most of the distortion I'll blame on a cheap mobile phone camera at night! It's not as bad as it looks, and the bit at the top is the shineyness of the "side" of the door edge reflecting more than the err... edge. The shadows are fairly straight... Looking at one set of hinge eyes they do appear to have slipped a bit from the vertical, not as bad as they appear here though!

Anyway, no one is going to see it and I'm starting to get fed up of the job. Still a lot (but decreasing) amount to do. I've got one door swinging quite freely but not hinged the other yet.

I've used a variety of methods. For the last one I used a flux paste for the bars rather than bakers fluid, but I put the gussets on with solder paint, at that point my level of accuracy was declining and this is done using a spirit pen mark on the outside of the door edge and held in place with a set of tweezers for just heating up the solder paint (which explains the dull grey patches that clean up okay).

I just need a day infront of a lathe and pretty much would be very close to finishing. Sadly I don't think that will happen before Colchester.