Interested in a signal building group?
-
- Fat Controller
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:38 am
Interested in a signal building group?
For the last Shildon event, I built some crude colour light signals to protect the bottom yard, they worked and created a bit of interest.
Ben has suggested on another post that he would like to build some 1/8 scale signals for Shildon, but I think has reconsidered and agrees that to proper scale for 5" gauge makes more sense.
Rather than work in isolation, is anyone out there interested in helping to form a little group to build a batch of signals, either to use at Shildon or for their own personal use? It should be much easier if we join together.
The other thing we'll need is for someone to design a signalling scheme for Shildon, over to you Jonny!
THE LIST
It occurs to me that a bit more organising and tabulating of this project may be useful. I've an idea in my head of what needs doing, and how to do it, but it's not down on paper for us all to pick over, so hopefully the following will make things clearer for us all, and everyone can comment and pull it to pieces. When there are additions or alterations needed, I can edit it as required, so it can be kept up to date.
Painting. Later signals seem to have had all the components galvanised, but the traditional colours were black and white. Posts were black up to 3 feet above rail level (101mm above top of our base), remainder white. Fittings were black. Small fittings like U bolts, shackles, bolts etc were galvanised. Ladders and safety loops usually matched the posts. Spectacle plates were black, though the drawing for the fabricated one stipulates 'micacious iron oxide silver grey paint'. The diamond sign, when fitted, was of course white, but the back, and the edges, were matt black.
However, there were lots of exceptions. Where the balance lever was higher, the black often extended to include it. Ladders were sometimes all white, or all black. After repainting, U bolts would be covered in black or white paint, and I suspect painters would have stuck to their prenationlisation schemes on occasion.
I generally use Halfords aerosols for painting, but found the paint sometimes lifted from the arms when removing the masking tape, so I am now using paint from here, http://www.riolettcustomaerosols.co.uk. This paint dries very quickly and gives a hard finish, though I don't know if it will turn out to be tough hard or brittle hard. I am applying it onto degreased steel and grit blasted brass. They do the full range of BSS colours, we need 537 signal red, and 356 golden yellow to BSS 381c. The aerosols are not cheap, but do give a nice misty spray.
For my U bolts, I have tinned them with soft solder, then lightly abraded and sprayed with matt varnish. Not ideal, as they look a bit like they've been painted with silver paint, but at least it shouldn't chip.
Posts. 15mm & 1/2" diameter steel. We have fixed the height of the signal posts at 675mm o/a. With an overlap between the two sections of post of 25mm, the top section will need to be 341mm long, and the bottom one 359mm.
I only have one drawing of posts and it is metric, so earlier ones may have been different. Anyway, according to this one, the bottom section was reduced in diameter to fit into the top section which was hot shrunk on. The taper on the neck appears to be about 60 degrees. The joint was strengthened with a weld "with a reasonably smooth finish".
You can see how I've done it. Notice the undercut at the end of the reduced diameter. The larger tube has a weld ridge on the inside, so I roughly linished a flat on the other piece to clear it. The joints were silver soldered, but after faffing around with pickling, cleaning and drying, I think I'll just use Araldite next time. Bottom tapped 1/4 BSP for fixing to the base. Turn off one end of the hydraulic connector, and drill at least 7mm to clear the plug on the lighting cables.
I have plenty of 1/2" mild steel tube left if anyone can't get it locally. The 15mm stainless was from Ebay, "15mm x 1.5mm Wall T304 Stainless Steel Tube 1500mm (60") Long Repair Pipe". £17 delivered, enough for 4 signals.
Have a look under "lamp brackets" for details of the holes to be drilled for the lighting cables. The cap is simply glued on.
Base. These have been machined by Ben in 20mm grey PVC. There will be an Acrylic bottom cover and three DIN sockets for electrical connections. They will contain the electronics, servos and a lead weight for a bit of stability.
Servos. It seems we're sticking with servos, they are cheap, easy to drive or replace, they are jittery, but it's not noticeable from a distance so it's being overlooked. Hitec HS55 to be used. They will be mounted on a steel base fitted into the PVC base, and held with 4 screws from above and the post fixing bolt. This bolt is to be a cut down 1/4 x 1/4 BSP Male hydraulic adapter.
Electronics. Over to you Jonny. There will be three signal boxes, each connected to it's signals and turnouts with 7 core cable. Each signal will have it's own Arduino, but will still be capable of being driven from 12v when at home.
Ladders. Laser cut stiles and 1/16 welding rod rungs. Also some slotted bits to hold the stiles apart for silver soldering the bits together. Eddy has assembled and primed these now. Laser cut safety loops are in stock and supplied with bends and roughly to the circular shape. Round headed bolts should be used to fix the sections of the ladder together (heads outside), hex heads for the safety loop.
Saddles and other castings. A combination of lost wax and whitemetal, as follows.
Arms and spectacle plates. Arms have been etched from 0.5mm brass. They will probably be supplied folded, but you may want to tighten them up a bit with a smooth jawed vice and steel block. Getting paint to stick to them is a bit tricky, in the end I lightly grit blasted them and used the Riolett aerosols which worked fine.
Ensure the square on the spindle fits the backblinder arm, and, checking the orientation, file a groove across a corner of the square to clear the pinch bolt. Bend the front arm, and bolt it (cranked towards the back), the spindle, and the spectacle plate together. 12BA bolts are a little bit big. I used 14BA (which all seem to have the wrong sized head), but M1.2 would have been better (available from the Model Dockyard), I think they have the same sized head, but a thicker shank of course. I used the same bolts for the arm.
Lay a piece of glazing in place, and equip yourself with some Johnson's Klear, now sold as Pledge multisurface wax. Check with the domestic authorities, there may already be some on site! I used it diluted 1 to 1 with water, and ran it round the joint, on the back, and painted the whole surface of the glazing with it. Even though it is water based, it will happily float over the shiny plastic glazing and secure it in place. Leave under cover to dry.
Lamp bracket. Drill and tap the two saddles and fit 12BA studs (long bolts with heads removed?) Assemble to the bracket itself. Assuming you are putting a bulb in the lamp, drill 1.6mm through the bottom saddle at the right hand end of the slot in the bracket. Turn the saddle 180 degrees. Turn the assembly over, and back drill through the bracket using the previously drilled hole in the saddle as a guide. Turn the saddle back 180 degrees. Drill the saddle using the bracket as a guide. Open up the holes if necessary to suit your cable.
You can then use the bracket to spot through onto the post and drill it for a good clearance on the wires. These holes should be 74mm from the top of the post. Lower arms were pitched at 6ft centres according the drawing I have, though photographs would suggest they were often closer. This distance was reduced to 4'-6" for miniature arms.
Lamp. Drill out the two centred holes in the bottom, and tap 12BA. Fit the lid, and drill through the hinge holes for 1/32 rivets. You will need to round off one edge quite a bit to clear the lid in the open position. Make up the bulbs and bulb holder as described below, then you can fit the lid, paint the lamp, and trim and fit the lens. Johnson's Klear should be good for this. You should have a spare lens, this is to allow you to experiment. If the lens is used as is, the light is a bit odd as the lens magnifies the filament, I got what I think is a better result by lightly abrading the back of the lens on fine abrasive paper. There is still a beam, but the light is more even. I have not supplied glazing for the backlight slot.
Bulbs and wiring. The bulbs supplied are 6v grain of rice which we will run at 5 volts giving a softer more parraffiny light. The first thing to do is to make the lamp holder, for which we will use the SIL header. Shorten two adjacent pins to half their length and then solder on your leads, using a minimum of solder and fine stranded wire. Bend the wires as close as possible to the pins, and fit a short piece of heat shrink sleeving to each. Cut the wires so that when they emerge from the bottom of the post, they will have tails about 6" long. Check that the sleeves will fit through the centre slot in the lamp bracket, and that the holder itself will fit into the slot in the bottom of the lamp body. Glue the holder into the lamp slightly recessed from the bottom, ensuring that there are no shorts, superglue should be fine here.
Apologies for the quality of the photos, I'll try and take some better ones in daylight. They are meant to show 3 bulbs, the right hand one just soldered into it's base, then a reinforced one. The one on the left has been extended with stiff wires instead of the header. The untidy supports can't be seen in the finished lamp, as in the lower picture.
The tails on the bulbs are extremely fine and need beefing up. To do this, trim them to about 6mm long, and solder into two holes in the header. Snap of the pair of headers, plug into the remaining strip, and holding in front of the lamp body, adjust the legs so that the filament will be in the centre of the lens. Now stiffen the whole thing by applying Araldite or Plastic Padding around the legs and the bottom of the glass. There should be enough parts for you to make a spare bulb.
Check all parts for shorts, then hook up the leads to 4.5 volts and fit the bulb to make sure all the parts work. Bolt the lamp to the bracket with a couple of round headed 12BA bolts, and feed the wires into the post. There are parts for a two pin JST plug in the kit, fit this to the wires, it should just plug onto a board in the base.
Balance lever bracket. A whitemetal casting. You will need to drill through 2.8mm for the pin. My initial thought was to thread the outer end 5BA and screw the pin in, but I tried to do it prototypically, and it worked. What's more, it was quite simple.
Firstly make up a little jig to cross drill 2.8mm rod for a 1/32 split pin. You could of course use 3mm or 1/8 rod for the sake of simplicity, 2.8mm happens to be scale. Use this to cross drill a length of steel. Hold this steel in a vice on the drilling machine table, align the hole vertically and directly under a 1/32 drill. Now you can slide the bracket casting onto the rod, and line up the drill in the middle of the raised boss. Slowly feed the drill. It is quite flexible, but the whitemetal is easily drilled, so the drill should bite and go through the casting, then through the rod, and out the other side of the casting. Job done!
The pin should protrude 0.8mm, and should have a flat top and bottom, presumably to take a spanner to break any rust. My dividing head is currently otherwise engaged, so no flats. I think it's worth drilling a 1/32 hole in a piece of plate, putting the split pin through it, and pulling hard to reduce the size of the eye to something more lifelike.
The balance lever pin should be about 80mm above the crank pin.
Crank base. A brass casting. The pin can be 3/32 rod, the outer end reduced to take a 10BA washer, and drilled for a 1/32 split pin. I suggest the inner end is threaded 8BA, but leave the plain portion a couple of mm longer than needed. Drill the base 3/32 for about 3mm deep, then drill and tap 8BA right through. This way, the plain portion of the pin will get some support, and it can be screwed in to just the right place without having to be too careful about lengths.
The position of the crank, height wise, would vary according to the conditions of course, but would be nominally 6 1/2" above rail level. That makes it 35mm above the base.
U bolts. We're using 1/16 welding rod with 10BA threads. Steve Birch has offered to do the bending.
Cranks and Balance Levers. These have been soldered together by Alan. You may notice the curved enlargements around the large hole in the balance lever, this is to prevent overheating and damage during the laser cutting. These curved bits should be filed off, so that the lever is straight sided. There is also extra material around the hole in the crank for the same reason, when this is filed off (if you bother) it gives a rather lopsided appearance to the area, just like the real thing oddly.
Operating wires etc. The 0.5mm wire is now in stock. Keith is looking into making the loops in the ends of the wires. Shackles as supplied are very useable, but I decided to fit better pins to them. They are M1 screws and I think are much neater than the ones supplied with the shackles and should prevent any catching on adjacent levers.
I made the shackles a bit narrower by squeezing them onto their respective levers using a smooth jawed vice, with the pin in place to keep the holes in line. Afterwards, they were opened up very slightly so they were free. Worked fine. The pins will need a tiny bit of Loctite on them when finally assembled because of course, they can't be tightened up.
I can't add more than 10 photos to this post, so have added THE LIST, part 2. It is the fourth post in this thread.
Ben has suggested on another post that he would like to build some 1/8 scale signals for Shildon, but I think has reconsidered and agrees that to proper scale for 5" gauge makes more sense.
Rather than work in isolation, is anyone out there interested in helping to form a little group to build a batch of signals, either to use at Shildon or for their own personal use? It should be much easier if we join together.
The other thing we'll need is for someone to design a signalling scheme for Shildon, over to you Jonny!
THE LIST
It occurs to me that a bit more organising and tabulating of this project may be useful. I've an idea in my head of what needs doing, and how to do it, but it's not down on paper for us all to pick over, so hopefully the following will make things clearer for us all, and everyone can comment and pull it to pieces. When there are additions or alterations needed, I can edit it as required, so it can be kept up to date.
Painting. Later signals seem to have had all the components galvanised, but the traditional colours were black and white. Posts were black up to 3 feet above rail level (101mm above top of our base), remainder white. Fittings were black. Small fittings like U bolts, shackles, bolts etc were galvanised. Ladders and safety loops usually matched the posts. Spectacle plates were black, though the drawing for the fabricated one stipulates 'micacious iron oxide silver grey paint'. The diamond sign, when fitted, was of course white, but the back, and the edges, were matt black.
However, there were lots of exceptions. Where the balance lever was higher, the black often extended to include it. Ladders were sometimes all white, or all black. After repainting, U bolts would be covered in black or white paint, and I suspect painters would have stuck to their prenationlisation schemes on occasion.
I generally use Halfords aerosols for painting, but found the paint sometimes lifted from the arms when removing the masking tape, so I am now using paint from here, http://www.riolettcustomaerosols.co.uk. This paint dries very quickly and gives a hard finish, though I don't know if it will turn out to be tough hard or brittle hard. I am applying it onto degreased steel and grit blasted brass. They do the full range of BSS colours, we need 537 signal red, and 356 golden yellow to BSS 381c. The aerosols are not cheap, but do give a nice misty spray.
For my U bolts, I have tinned them with soft solder, then lightly abraded and sprayed with matt varnish. Not ideal, as they look a bit like they've been painted with silver paint, but at least it shouldn't chip.
Posts. 15mm & 1/2" diameter steel. We have fixed the height of the signal posts at 675mm o/a. With an overlap between the two sections of post of 25mm, the top section will need to be 341mm long, and the bottom one 359mm.
I only have one drawing of posts and it is metric, so earlier ones may have been different. Anyway, according to this one, the bottom section was reduced in diameter to fit into the top section which was hot shrunk on. The taper on the neck appears to be about 60 degrees. The joint was strengthened with a weld "with a reasonably smooth finish".
You can see how I've done it. Notice the undercut at the end of the reduced diameter. The larger tube has a weld ridge on the inside, so I roughly linished a flat on the other piece to clear it. The joints were silver soldered, but after faffing around with pickling, cleaning and drying, I think I'll just use Araldite next time. Bottom tapped 1/4 BSP for fixing to the base. Turn off one end of the hydraulic connector, and drill at least 7mm to clear the plug on the lighting cables.
I have plenty of 1/2" mild steel tube left if anyone can't get it locally. The 15mm stainless was from Ebay, "15mm x 1.5mm Wall T304 Stainless Steel Tube 1500mm (60") Long Repair Pipe". £17 delivered, enough for 4 signals.
Have a look under "lamp brackets" for details of the holes to be drilled for the lighting cables. The cap is simply glued on.
Base. These have been machined by Ben in 20mm grey PVC. There will be an Acrylic bottom cover and three DIN sockets for electrical connections. They will contain the electronics, servos and a lead weight for a bit of stability.
Servos. It seems we're sticking with servos, they are cheap, easy to drive or replace, they are jittery, but it's not noticeable from a distance so it's being overlooked. Hitec HS55 to be used. They will be mounted on a steel base fitted into the PVC base, and held with 4 screws from above and the post fixing bolt. This bolt is to be a cut down 1/4 x 1/4 BSP Male hydraulic adapter.
Electronics. Over to you Jonny. There will be three signal boxes, each connected to it's signals and turnouts with 7 core cable. Each signal will have it's own Arduino, but will still be capable of being driven from 12v when at home.
Ladders. Laser cut stiles and 1/16 welding rod rungs. Also some slotted bits to hold the stiles apart for silver soldering the bits together. Eddy has assembled and primed these now. Laser cut safety loops are in stock and supplied with bends and roughly to the circular shape. Round headed bolts should be used to fix the sections of the ladder together (heads outside), hex heads for the safety loop.
Saddles and other castings. A combination of lost wax and whitemetal, as follows.
Arms and spectacle plates. Arms have been etched from 0.5mm brass. They will probably be supplied folded, but you may want to tighten them up a bit with a smooth jawed vice and steel block. Getting paint to stick to them is a bit tricky, in the end I lightly grit blasted them and used the Riolett aerosols which worked fine.
Ensure the square on the spindle fits the backblinder arm, and, checking the orientation, file a groove across a corner of the square to clear the pinch bolt. Bend the front arm, and bolt it (cranked towards the back), the spindle, and the spectacle plate together. 12BA bolts are a little bit big. I used 14BA (which all seem to have the wrong sized head), but M1.2 would have been better (available from the Model Dockyard), I think they have the same sized head, but a thicker shank of course. I used the same bolts for the arm.
Lay a piece of glazing in place, and equip yourself with some Johnson's Klear, now sold as Pledge multisurface wax. Check with the domestic authorities, there may already be some on site! I used it diluted 1 to 1 with water, and ran it round the joint, on the back, and painted the whole surface of the glazing with it. Even though it is water based, it will happily float over the shiny plastic glazing and secure it in place. Leave under cover to dry.
Lamp bracket. Drill and tap the two saddles and fit 12BA studs (long bolts with heads removed?) Assemble to the bracket itself. Assuming you are putting a bulb in the lamp, drill 1.6mm through the bottom saddle at the right hand end of the slot in the bracket. Turn the saddle 180 degrees. Turn the assembly over, and back drill through the bracket using the previously drilled hole in the saddle as a guide. Turn the saddle back 180 degrees. Drill the saddle using the bracket as a guide. Open up the holes if necessary to suit your cable.
You can then use the bracket to spot through onto the post and drill it for a good clearance on the wires. These holes should be 74mm from the top of the post. Lower arms were pitched at 6ft centres according the drawing I have, though photographs would suggest they were often closer. This distance was reduced to 4'-6" for miniature arms.
Lamp. Drill out the two centred holes in the bottom, and tap 12BA. Fit the lid, and drill through the hinge holes for 1/32 rivets. You will need to round off one edge quite a bit to clear the lid in the open position. Make up the bulbs and bulb holder as described below, then you can fit the lid, paint the lamp, and trim and fit the lens. Johnson's Klear should be good for this. You should have a spare lens, this is to allow you to experiment. If the lens is used as is, the light is a bit odd as the lens magnifies the filament, I got what I think is a better result by lightly abrading the back of the lens on fine abrasive paper. There is still a beam, but the light is more even. I have not supplied glazing for the backlight slot.
Bulbs and wiring. The bulbs supplied are 6v grain of rice which we will run at 5 volts giving a softer more parraffiny light. The first thing to do is to make the lamp holder, for which we will use the SIL header. Shorten two adjacent pins to half their length and then solder on your leads, using a minimum of solder and fine stranded wire. Bend the wires as close as possible to the pins, and fit a short piece of heat shrink sleeving to each. Cut the wires so that when they emerge from the bottom of the post, they will have tails about 6" long. Check that the sleeves will fit through the centre slot in the lamp bracket, and that the holder itself will fit into the slot in the bottom of the lamp body. Glue the holder into the lamp slightly recessed from the bottom, ensuring that there are no shorts, superglue should be fine here.
Apologies for the quality of the photos, I'll try and take some better ones in daylight. They are meant to show 3 bulbs, the right hand one just soldered into it's base, then a reinforced one. The one on the left has been extended with stiff wires instead of the header. The untidy supports can't be seen in the finished lamp, as in the lower picture.
The tails on the bulbs are extremely fine and need beefing up. To do this, trim them to about 6mm long, and solder into two holes in the header. Snap of the pair of headers, plug into the remaining strip, and holding in front of the lamp body, adjust the legs so that the filament will be in the centre of the lens. Now stiffen the whole thing by applying Araldite or Plastic Padding around the legs and the bottom of the glass. There should be enough parts for you to make a spare bulb.
Check all parts for shorts, then hook up the leads to 4.5 volts and fit the bulb to make sure all the parts work. Bolt the lamp to the bracket with a couple of round headed 12BA bolts, and feed the wires into the post. There are parts for a two pin JST plug in the kit, fit this to the wires, it should just plug onto a board in the base.
Balance lever bracket. A whitemetal casting. You will need to drill through 2.8mm for the pin. My initial thought was to thread the outer end 5BA and screw the pin in, but I tried to do it prototypically, and it worked. What's more, it was quite simple.
Firstly make up a little jig to cross drill 2.8mm rod for a 1/32 split pin. You could of course use 3mm or 1/8 rod for the sake of simplicity, 2.8mm happens to be scale. Use this to cross drill a length of steel. Hold this steel in a vice on the drilling machine table, align the hole vertically and directly under a 1/32 drill. Now you can slide the bracket casting onto the rod, and line up the drill in the middle of the raised boss. Slowly feed the drill. It is quite flexible, but the whitemetal is easily drilled, so the drill should bite and go through the casting, then through the rod, and out the other side of the casting. Job done!
The pin should protrude 0.8mm, and should have a flat top and bottom, presumably to take a spanner to break any rust. My dividing head is currently otherwise engaged, so no flats. I think it's worth drilling a 1/32 hole in a piece of plate, putting the split pin through it, and pulling hard to reduce the size of the eye to something more lifelike.
The balance lever pin should be about 80mm above the crank pin.
Crank base. A brass casting. The pin can be 3/32 rod, the outer end reduced to take a 10BA washer, and drilled for a 1/32 split pin. I suggest the inner end is threaded 8BA, but leave the plain portion a couple of mm longer than needed. Drill the base 3/32 for about 3mm deep, then drill and tap 8BA right through. This way, the plain portion of the pin will get some support, and it can be screwed in to just the right place without having to be too careful about lengths.
The position of the crank, height wise, would vary according to the conditions of course, but would be nominally 6 1/2" above rail level. That makes it 35mm above the base.
U bolts. We're using 1/16 welding rod with 10BA threads. Steve Birch has offered to do the bending.
Cranks and Balance Levers. These have been soldered together by Alan. You may notice the curved enlargements around the large hole in the balance lever, this is to prevent overheating and damage during the laser cutting. These curved bits should be filed off, so that the lever is straight sided. There is also extra material around the hole in the crank for the same reason, when this is filed off (if you bother) it gives a rather lopsided appearance to the area, just like the real thing oddly.
Operating wires etc. The 0.5mm wire is now in stock. Keith is looking into making the loops in the ends of the wires. Shackles as supplied are very useable, but I decided to fit better pins to them. They are M1 screws and I think are much neater than the ones supplied with the shackles and should prevent any catching on adjacent levers.
I made the shackles a bit narrower by squeezing them onto their respective levers using a smooth jawed vice, with the pin in place to keep the holes in line. Afterwards, they were opened up very slightly so they were free. Worked fine. The pins will need a tiny bit of Loctite on them when finally assembled because of course, they can't be tightened up.
I can't add more than 10 photos to this post, so have added THE LIST, part 2. It is the fourth post in this thread.
Last edited by Dave Noble on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 23 times in total.
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- Engine Driver
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: Mordor, or Coalville as its spelt around here.
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Oh, go on then!
I'm certainly interested.
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
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- Fat Controller
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:14 pm
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
(Removing commentary post so THE LIST posts are a bit more contiguous)
Last edited by Richard Phillips on Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Fat Controller
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:38 am
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
THE LIST, part 2. Post top gear. I've added this because I can't get more than 10 photos into one post.
Spindle bearing. Drill the 4 centred holes 1.7mm for the U bolts. The round pocket is for a buffer. Drill through the bottom of the pocket and tap 10BA. Then turn up a cylindrically headed 10BA bolt, diameter to fit the pocket, length to give some adjustment, but it is likely to end up sticking out about 1mm. When adjusted, lock with a nut on the back.
Off stop rod. This is to prevent an over enthusiastic signalman making the arm go over the top. You will need to file the forked end so that the arms are the same width as the rod, and form eyes around the hole, something like the photo.
Attach the rod with a 1/16 rivet and split pin. Fit the saddle with the shelf towards the top, and adjust it so that the collar on the rod barely touches the spring. This should avoid the servo chattering.
Backblinder. You may need to adjust the fit on the spindle by filing the square a bit. Carefully check the orientation of the front arm (which the wire is attached to), spectacle plate and spindle, then file a slot in the square on the spindle to clear the pinch bolt, 12BA. Attach the vane as it is called, and plate washer using the M1 bolts and nuts. Beware, they break quite easily. Bolts this small may seem a bit over the top, but as you will see, using larger ones would mean making the whole arm bigger and I thought that may spoil the appearance.
Spindle bearing. Drill the 4 centred holes 1.7mm for the U bolts. The round pocket is for a buffer. Drill through the bottom of the pocket and tap 10BA. Then turn up a cylindrically headed 10BA bolt, diameter to fit the pocket, length to give some adjustment, but it is likely to end up sticking out about 1mm. When adjusted, lock with a nut on the back.
Off stop rod. This is to prevent an over enthusiastic signalman making the arm go over the top. You will need to file the forked end so that the arms are the same width as the rod, and form eyes around the hole, something like the photo.
Attach the rod with a 1/16 rivet and split pin. Fit the saddle with the shelf towards the top, and adjust it so that the collar on the rod barely touches the spring. This should avoid the servo chattering.
Backblinder. You may need to adjust the fit on the spindle by filing the square a bit. Carefully check the orientation of the front arm (which the wire is attached to), spectacle plate and spindle, then file a slot in the square on the spindle to clear the pinch bolt, 12BA. Attach the vane as it is called, and plate washer using the M1 bolts and nuts. Beware, they break quite easily. Bolts this small may seem a bit over the top, but as you will see, using larger ones would mean making the whole arm bigger and I thought that may spoil the appearance.
Last edited by Dave Noble on Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- Fat Controller
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:38 am
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Just checked some books.
Railway Signal Engineering (Lewis), has lots of generic signal drawings, none of which is dimensioned, so no use really.
Mechanical Railway Signalling (Wilson), has lots of good drawings. Generally they are of different bits of different signals, the only ones which cover whole signals are GER type. No photos. Very good.
LNER Constituent Signalling (Maclean), a few drawings, but again different bits from different companies, except one page of GER which is straight from the above book. Lots of photos.
LMS Signals (Warburton). Unlike the others, very specific content of course. Lots of good drawings, photos and information. Best of the lot, if you're into LMS.
Railway Signal Engineering (Lewis), has lots of generic signal drawings, none of which is dimensioned, so no use really.
Mechanical Railway Signalling (Wilson), has lots of good drawings. Generally they are of different bits of different signals, the only ones which cover whole signals are GER type. No photos. Very good.
LNER Constituent Signalling (Maclean), a few drawings, but again different bits from different companies, except one page of GER which is straight from the above book. Lots of photos.
LMS Signals (Warburton). Unlike the others, very specific content of course. Lots of good drawings, photos and information. Best of the lot, if you're into LMS.
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- Fat Controller
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:14 pm
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
I have ambitions to one day own enough of a back garden that a signalled siding might be a possibility - or failing that a display track with a buffer stop and a signal. A tall LMS tubular signal would certainly be nice - I've seen a mix of eras with colour light and semaphore gantrys, but Jonny would probably know best (are there any semaphores in active use on the "main line"?).
There was a British Rail Signalling video on you tube somewhere which explained various boards and markings on the signal posts which was interesting,I'll post it if I find it https://youtu.be/wAO3JbXYRnI (1989)
I'm having thoughts of a small lightweight wooden boxes, like we all seem to make for our wagons would make these bits transportable to Shildon or exhibitions.
There was a British Rail Signalling video on you tube somewhere which explained various boards and markings on the signal posts which was interesting,I'll post it if I find it https://youtu.be/wAO3JbXYRnI (1989)
I'm having thoughts of a small lightweight wooden boxes, like we all seem to make for our wagons would make these bits transportable to Shildon or exhibitions.
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
I'm interested as well, although apart from locomotive building I have a number of domestic projects which are on the 'wait until I retire' list and since I am now retired are becoming pressing, so I may only be able to give limited support.
My preference is for semaphores. Their aspects can be seen from both directions which is better for spectators and for telling if a train has overrun a red. The public are also more likely to understand semaphores from my experience with signaled miniature railways. In any case GL5 does appear to be very much about the railway in the time of steam when semaphores were the rule off the main lines.
If the signals are operated electrically then control and interlocking shouldn't be too difficult, even with my limited knowledge of electronics and integrated circuits. From what I remember it's all very logical.
Oh and in answer to the query about semaphores on the network, there are still some about e.g. the Cumbrian Coast line and part of the Newcastle & Carlisle come to mind in this area.
Eddie
My preference is for semaphores. Their aspects can be seen from both directions which is better for spectators and for telling if a train has overrun a red. The public are also more likely to understand semaphores from my experience with signaled miniature railways. In any case GL5 does appear to be very much about the railway in the time of steam when semaphores were the rule off the main lines.
If the signals are operated electrically then control and interlocking shouldn't be too difficult, even with my limited knowledge of electronics and integrated circuits. From what I remember it's all very logical.
Oh and in answer to the query about semaphores on the network, there are still some about e.g. the Cumbrian Coast line and part of the Newcastle & Carlisle come to mind in this area.
Eddie
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Further to Dave's post about sources of information, here's a quick round-up of some of the book resources I've seen listed (and I own none of them so I can't comment on their usefulness!)
Some in the "...in colour" series from Ian Allen publishers
British Railway Signalling Development in Colour
Robert Hendry
Ian Allen
Western Region Signalling in Colour
Kevin Robertson
Ian Allen
Aspects of Modelling Signalling
Nigel Digby
2010 Ian Allan
OPC "A Pictorial Reocrd of..." series "survey" and "illustrated history"
A Pictorial Record of SOUTHERN SIGNALS
Pryer,G.
OPC, 1999 (3rd Imp)
A Pictorial Record of LMS Signals
L. G. Warburton
Noodle books (softback)
A Pictorial Record of LMS SIGNALS
Warburton, L.G. & Anderson, V.R.
[Standard Semaphore Signals and Signal Boxes of the LMS]
OPC, 1972
A Pictorial Record of L.N.W.R. SIGNALLING
Foster, R.D.
OPC, 1982
A Pictorial Record of LNER Constituent Signalling
Maclean, A.A.
OPC, 1983
A Pictorial Record of GREAT WESTERN SIGNALLING
Vaughan, A.
OPC, 1973
AND
OPC, 1984 (Rev)
A pictorial survey of RAILWAY SIGNALLING
Allen, D. & Woolstenholmes, C.J.
OPC, 1991
An Illustrated History of Great Northern Railway Signalling
Michael A. Vanns
OPC
Two Centuries of RAILWAY SIGNALLING
Kichenside, G. & Williams, A.
OPC, 1999 (Rprnt)
Others:
SIGNALLING IN THE AGE OF STEAM
Vanns, M.
IA/BCA, 1995
SIGNALS AND SIGNAL-BOXES of Great Britain
Hucknall, D.
Alan Sutton, 1998
A Scratchbuilders Guide to Semaphore Signal Construction
Peter Squibb
Wild Swan
THE SIGNAL BOX
A Pictorial History and Guide to Designs.
Signalling Study Group
OPC, 1986
authors are R. Foster, J. Hinson, M. Instone, P. Kay, J. Morris & R. Newman.
Operating Signals, Points and Level Crossings
Clive Heathcote and A. Anderson
Crowood Press
And there seem to be a number of publications about signal boxes and operating reminiscences
Some in the "...in colour" series from Ian Allen publishers
British Railway Signalling Development in Colour
Robert Hendry
Ian Allen
Western Region Signalling in Colour
Kevin Robertson
Ian Allen
Aspects of Modelling Signalling
Nigel Digby
2010 Ian Allan
OPC "A Pictorial Reocrd of..." series "survey" and "illustrated history"
A Pictorial Record of SOUTHERN SIGNALS
Pryer,G.
OPC, 1999 (3rd Imp)
A Pictorial Record of LMS Signals
L. G. Warburton
Noodle books (softback)
A Pictorial Record of LMS SIGNALS
Warburton, L.G. & Anderson, V.R.
[Standard Semaphore Signals and Signal Boxes of the LMS]
OPC, 1972
A Pictorial Record of L.N.W.R. SIGNALLING
Foster, R.D.
OPC, 1982
A Pictorial Record of LNER Constituent Signalling
Maclean, A.A.
OPC, 1983
A Pictorial Record of GREAT WESTERN SIGNALLING
Vaughan, A.
OPC, 1973
AND
OPC, 1984 (Rev)
A pictorial survey of RAILWAY SIGNALLING
Allen, D. & Woolstenholmes, C.J.
OPC, 1991
An Illustrated History of Great Northern Railway Signalling
Michael A. Vanns
OPC
Two Centuries of RAILWAY SIGNALLING
Kichenside, G. & Williams, A.
OPC, 1999 (Rprnt)
Others:
SIGNALLING IN THE AGE OF STEAM
Vanns, M.
IA/BCA, 1995
SIGNALS AND SIGNAL-BOXES of Great Britain
Hucknall, D.
Alan Sutton, 1998
A Scratchbuilders Guide to Semaphore Signal Construction
Peter Squibb
Wild Swan
THE SIGNAL BOX
A Pictorial History and Guide to Designs.
Signalling Study Group
OPC, 1986
authors are R. Foster, J. Hinson, M. Instone, P. Kay, J. Morris & R. Newman.
Operating Signals, Points and Level Crossings
Clive Heathcote and A. Anderson
Crowood Press
And there seem to be a number of publications about signal boxes and operating reminiscences
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
I've looked at some of these books and for the most part the words 'Pictorial' and 'illustrated' tell it all, pictures but no dimensioned drawings. I have a copy of Vanns 'Signalling in the Age of Steam' and it follows the pattern. I also have a pre grouping book on railway engineering which has a dimensioned drawing of an LSWR signal.
I have seen some drawings of BR signals somewhere showing the dimensions of the signal arms and standard details for posts and the like but I can't for the life of me remember where I've seen them. Watch this space. Of course there wasn't a standard signal since every installation was tailored to it's location.
Eddie
I have seen some drawings of BR signals somewhere showing the dimensions of the signal arms and standard details for posts and the like but I can't for the life of me remember where I've seen them. Watch this space. Of course there wasn't a standard signal since every installation was tailored to it's location.
Eddie
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Seems like it's to be semaphores then. Just to prove their continued use, I went down to Uttoxeter, nearest station, camera in hand. I even took a spare battery, but forgot to check that there was a memory card in the camera! Anyway, here's one of them. Looks very much BR to me, but with LMS ancestry.
I've sent for some samples of LMS bits from Mike Hewson, will post pictures when they arrive.
I've also turned up Doug's articles in EIM on signals. I thought I had all the early issues, but it seems not. They start in December 1990 on signalling in general, but I'm missing the next 4 issues, so I don't know which issue actual construction starts in. Construction continues with LMS signals in June 1991, moves on to GNR in October and concludes in March 1992.
I've sent for some samples of LMS bits from Mike Hewson, will post pictures when they arrive.
I've also turned up Doug's articles in EIM on signals. I thought I had all the early issues, but it seems not. They start in December 1990 on signalling in general, but I'm missing the next 4 issues, so I don't know which issue actual construction starts in. Construction continues with LMS signals in June 1991, moves on to GNR in October and concludes in March 1992.
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Hi Dave , I dont know what exactly you have in mind but i am always up to be what help i can ,so please let me know what i can do to be assistance .
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
The ideas behind forming the group are to to try and involve more members by offering something new, to see if (as a group) we can help source parts and designs (drawings) so that anyone can build a signal or two for themselves, and to encourage the production of a sensible signalling system for Shildon, or anywhere else we may visit with the portable track.
Whether we want to build a signal or two each, or for one member to build the posts, another the ladders and platforms etc so we are all dependant on each other remains to be seen, but working as a group rather than in isolation should hopefully produce more and better, for less. Let's see.
Whether we want to build a signal or two each, or for one member to build the posts, another the ladders and platforms etc so we are all dependant on each other remains to be seen, but working as a group rather than in isolation should hopefully produce more and better, for less. Let's see.
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
As a start, I'm interested in building an LMS two arm signal, principally because we could use a few of them (is that right Jonny?), and most of the parts are commercially available.
I've been looking at posts, and according to the LMS Signals book, the tubular steel ones were stepped, ie of two different diameters. Generally the top section was 5 1/2" diameter and the bottom 6 5/8". Around the war they were 5 1/8" and 6 1/2". The nearest brass tube I can find is 9/16 x 16G and 12 x 1.6mm, the latter will need reducing on the OD slightly to fit into the larger tube. I'll try and get a price later this week, unless anyone else knows of something better.
I think Richard's idea of light wooden boxes is a good one. What about putting the signals on 3/4 ply bases to match the track. If they were a standard width, say 6", and a bit larger the other way than the signal itself, could they be slid into a pair of guides in a box and just stacked on top of each other?
I've been looking at posts, and according to the LMS Signals book, the tubular steel ones were stepped, ie of two different diameters. Generally the top section was 5 1/2" diameter and the bottom 6 5/8". Around the war they were 5 1/8" and 6 1/2". The nearest brass tube I can find is 9/16 x 16G and 12 x 1.6mm, the latter will need reducing on the OD slightly to fit into the larger tube. I'll try and get a price later this week, unless anyone else knows of something better.
I think Richard's idea of light wooden boxes is a good one. What about putting the signals on 3/4 ply bases to match the track. If they were a standard width, say 6", and a bit larger the other way than the signal itself, could they be slid into a pair of guides in a box and just stacked on top of each other?
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
From your photos Dave it appears that the signal is electrically driven. I'd be surprised if most of the BR semophores now in service aren't motor operated - I wonder when that came in (ie compatible with the steam era)? Driving them electrically might be more "prototypical" if the Shildon layout is to be electrically operated? I doubt we can get actuators that small, I quite like the "BR"? pattern although it has a simple (was a Nichols pattern?) arm. There are a few full size arms on ebay now and again.
I was wondering with the baseboards for the portable track there might be a way to devise a fixing to the boards then it's all plug and play. I have most back-issues for Doug's "in the yard" series, although I doubt Tee publishing would condone me scanning and printing them here....
I was wondering with the baseboards for the portable track there might be a way to devise a fixing to the boards then it's all plug and play. I have most back-issues for Doug's "in the yard" series, although I doubt Tee publishing would condone me scanning and printing them here....
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
It isn't. It's mechanically worked, but electrically detected (And it was the last semaphore I messed with on the main line before moving to the office!). It is out of site from the box, so the signalman can not see the back blinder or aspect being shown. Therefore the arms position is electrically detected and indicated in the box, as well as having the Lamp proved lit. Electrically driven semaphores are becoming quite a rare thing. In the East Midlands I know of only two left, Melton Mowbray's Up Distant (No. 19 from memory), and Oakham's Up Distant (No. 1, which is still mechanically slotted with Langham's Up Starter [No. 2 I think, pushing the grey cells a bit that one!]).Richard Phillips wrote:From your photos Dave it appears that the signal is electrically driven. I'd be surprised if most of the BR semophores now in service aren't motor operated
I have created a plan for Shildon 2016, BUT, as a group we still need to decide what the layout for next year will be. There's little point in creating all the signals, only to discover that the layout has changed and the signals are now incorrect. There is also the question of how far down the road of prototype operation do we want to go? The Signalling I produced for the first year (Which survived for the second year too, but not the ride home!) was far from perfect and highlighted a couple of issues. I did it to see if anyone else thought it worthwhile (It appears so!).
As we worked the layout this year, it required three Signalmen. If we were to signal the layout to make it work in similar fashion, that would mean three signal boxes (Three lots of interlocking, and three different methods of single line working!), and minimum three people who know how to operated them. I'm more than happy to try and make it happen, but it'll be no easy task!
I'll try to post the plan as is tomorrow.
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
I did most of my train spotting just up the street from my home in Sunderland at Wearmouth Junction. Sometime in the fifties the existing timber built junction signal on the up line was replaced with a new BR pattern signal. This carried the distant for Monkwearmouth Box less than a half mile south and this was electrically operated, so electric actuation is definitely appropriate for the steam era. I think this signal was only removed when the line was passed over to the Tyne & Wear Metro about 12 years ago.
Eddie
Eddie
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
Well Dave we started something, I was thinking of some simple signals Hornby Dublo things. are we now thinking of some more detailed items ?
I purchased Dougs drawing of a home and distant on round post plus a few bits See picture and it came to almost £70 are we prepared for this or should we think in some simple terms ie spectacle plate could be 2 or3 bits of laser cut steel arm could form 1 of the layers.
Post as you say brass tube, crank again get some laser cut.
Any way I in for a go.
Ben
Sorry cannot see just now how to add pics.
I purchased Dougs drawing of a home and distant on round post plus a few bits See picture and it came to almost £70 are we prepared for this or should we think in some simple terms ie spectacle plate could be 2 or3 bits of laser cut steel arm could form 1 of the layers.
Post as you say brass tube, crank again get some laser cut.
Any way I in for a go.
Ben
Sorry cannot see just now how to add pics.
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Re: Interested in a signal building group?
I didn't do at all well with the brass tube, neither of the sizes quoted is available from Smiths any more. The best they could offer was 1/2" x 16G, it won't be in for another two weeks, and is about £10 a metre. However, I think if it is made full length, and put inside a piece of ordinary 15mm plumbing pipe with thin collars as spacers, it should be fine. I'll go ahead with that idea if no-one comes up with something better. I did find suitable stainless tube, but that was even more expensive.
Proof of the signal's workings.
I think we have to assume that the layout at Shildon will be the same next year. Can Jonny please explain why we need 3 signalmen. I assume one in the main yard, one at the junction, and one in the bottom yard, but do we need that last one? And should we consider properly signalling just a small section or yard as a start?
What do you think about detail on these things? I feel that it's not usually much more work to make something accurately than crudely. All the workings are much the same, usually just the fineness and a few more bits and bobs. I can see that the cost could be significant, but as you suggest Ben, there may be alternative ways of making some of the bits. I'm waiting until Mike's bits arrive to see what sort of value they represent. A view of yours would be good Ben, go to the first post in the first section (Announcements) for details on how to post pictures.
Proof of the signal's workings.
I think we have to assume that the layout at Shildon will be the same next year. Can Jonny please explain why we need 3 signalmen. I assume one in the main yard, one at the junction, and one in the bottom yard, but do we need that last one? And should we consider properly signalling just a small section or yard as a start?
What do you think about detail on these things? I feel that it's not usually much more work to make something accurately than crudely. All the workings are much the same, usually just the fineness and a few more bits and bobs. I can see that the cost could be significant, but as you suggest Ben, there may be alternative ways of making some of the bits. I'm waiting until Mike's bits arrive to see what sort of value they represent. A view of yours would be good Ben, go to the first post in the first section (Announcements) for details on how to post pictures.
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
From the track layout at last year shildon i guess we would need to start 3starter signals 1 from Daves end 1 from the middle yard an 1 as exist from bootom yard, plus 1 stop with maybe calling on arms to enter bottom yard or maybe off to shed then 1 spilter to give road to dave or middle yard. looking at LMS signals I rather like diagram 28 but replace round main suport with large H as shown in diagram 26.
On thoughts re base suggest 3/4 ply on say a 2mm ali plate this could slide under main track base to aid support..
given the new RC control can we us this with the actuators used in planes or ship models the chap I spoke to at Harrogate had 20 channels.
servos seemed small and cheap I think he said about £4 each.
advise please on adding pics
Ben
On thoughts re base suggest 3/4 ply on say a 2mm ali plate this could slide under main track base to aid support..
given the new RC control can we us this with the actuators used in planes or ship models the chap I spoke to at Harrogate had 20 channels.
servos seemed small and cheap I think he said about £4 each.
advise please on adding pics
Ben
Re: Interested in a signal building group?
hi Dave just seen you post you and me on at same time will put pics on in morning as on PC WORK..
will look in shed as might well have some we used to use lots. I have trade account smiths so might well get better costs they have some sort of mimimum cost so if I can I might add it to existing order.
Ben
will look in shed as might well have some we used to use lots. I have trade account smiths so might well get better costs they have some sort of mimimum cost so if I can I might add it to existing order.
Ben