Interested in a signal building group?

[Eddyg]

I'm assuming that Alan is referring to galvanic/electrolytic/bimetallic corrosion between the stainless and carbon steels. I think given that the signals will be painted and will normally be stored in the dry that this will not be a problem. If they do get used outside and get wet from rainfall then they will need to be thoroughly dried before being stored to prevent corrosion conditions from being created, not just between the elements of the posts but between the posts and any metal fittings attached to them.

Has there been any discussion on how the materials/components are to be procured and how they are to be fabricated? It looks like Jonny and Richard are the S&T department doing electrics, electronics, hardware, software and programming, Dave is the structural department and Ben is working on the fixtures and fittings, so how are we thinking of bringing all the bits together and how is it all going to be financed?

Eddie

[Dave Noble]

how is it all going to be financed?

It has to be financed by us. If I build 2 signals, I will have to pay for all the parts for them, but they will be mine, not GL5s, just like the portable track which is owned by individuals, not the club. If those two signals are to suit a location at Shildon, I will be expected to supply them when needed.

how are we thinking of bringing all the bits together

This was touched on last weekend. When the idea of building signals was first suggested, there was a thought that it could work like the Lindsey wagon building projects where some members build parts, then they get passed on to others who assemble parts, then passed further for more assembly. I can't see this working for this project, posting part finished signals around the country is a non starter. However, I was hoping that we could all contribute something, so, for instance, the signal arms all have a tapered flange top and bottom, so perhaps someone would like to make a press tool to do that for everyone in the group. Etc.

I'm hoping that parts that need working on can be done in batches by individuals for the group, then we will each have to assemble our own signals.

I suggest therefore, that Jonny (and other interested parties) draw up a definitive signalling diagram for Shildon, and from that a list of requirements. Anyone who wants to build signals for anywhere else then adds them to the list, and we get a final total. We then somehow have to allocate signals to new owners, and draw up a complete parts list.

Laser cut parts and lost wax castings will come in bulk from relevant suppliers, and where appropriate be distributed for machining or whatever by volunteers. Parts are then sent out to owners for assembly. I was thinking that I'd add the laser cut parts to my next work order for convenience and to save a bit of carriage. Lost wax parts likewise.

I'm thinking that if we all contribute something to the project, we will do that for free on a "you scratch my back" basis. Any outgoings for materials could be chargeable to the project.

I had originally thought that each of us would pay for the bits we were working on, send them to each other on completion, and then all settle up later, but I now wonder if it might be simpler if one of us acts as banker to finance the parts; I guess that would be me.

It looks like Jonny and Richard are the S&T department doing electrics, electronics, hardware, software and programming,

It seems so. I have offered to draw up some parts in 3D CAD, and Ben will try and grow them in a lost waxable resin for casting. Another thing which needs doing apart from an arm press tool, is finding a supply of spectacle glasses. I was wondering about using 1mm glass, which is available but difficult to get hold of. Does anyone know how to cut ovals and circles from it? Or do we need to look at water jet cutting, it was referred to in the last Turnout. If the glass is painted with Pebeo Vitrea 160 paint , and baked at 160 degrees, it is dishwasher safe, which should be good enough for us. Or is there a better way? Then there are the pull wires. These were all made off with a thimble at each end, and connected to the arm and balance lever with shackles. Castings for thimbles and D shackles, and even thin stainless wire, are available from model shipbuilding suppliers. Would anyone like to look into this? The spindle bearing casting (bracket for the arm) will probably need drilling for the spindle and U bolts in a fixture. Anyone fancy that? And the U bolts (which fix all the bits to the post) would be best machined and bent in bulk.

These are my thought, what are yours?

I got a couple of posts silver soldered together today, but didn't manage to get them photographed. Perhaps tomorrow, or later today even! I'll try and make a pattern for the cap this week, so I can cast them in whitemetal, though it may be next week. Oh, and lastly, if we think that layers of acrylic would make a good base, Chris Lee has acquired a laser cutter (he cut the backplates for my colour light signals at Shildon this year) so he may be able to help with cutting our bases, better to keep it in the "family".

[Itchy]

I would be more than happy to help, I can cut and engrave most things other than metals "not powerful enough" and some plastics due to the poisonous fumes etc.

We have just ordered some 1mm clear acrylic at work due for delivery this week. I could probably buy a sheet if I ask nicely at around £8 ish 600 x 400mm if this would suit. But don't forget it can be sourced in colors too.Just be a case of finding it in sensible quantities with out buying massive sheets with crazy postage fees.

[Ben Lyons]

Hello all
Having been away for a couple of weeks I am just catching up on events, Looks like things are moving on this topic. As I said I'm in and will do what I can. 3D print ect plus will help Dave on any drawings needed. I can do as I have the kit any machining required ( you are welcome to come to workshop if you wish for a Saturday get together we got lots done on the track this way)

I'm up for the two bracket. Jonny can we get thoughts as to need! I guess for exit to middle yard this is the secondary road with Dave's as main. Given the tightness of the sight we will be shoulder to post and the bracket will have go left of Main post with the upper left post/ arm taller than the right. (advise please)
What's needed for the second signal?

For the build I am thinking of a H section for the main post with round posts above the walkway. LMS signal book has one I will up rate it with New BR arms lamps ect so it will fall in with the group ethos.

Now I know we are spread but is it worth getting together or can we do it all via forum.

Ben

[Ben Lyons]

I have CNC router that will cut ali ect plus thin brass, Also 3 CNC mills for heavy stuff..
On arms I could fold them in brass or steel as channels then machine on the flange taper.

Just a thought!
Ben

[Richard Phillips]

Jonny, can you let me know what Arduino kit you're using that I need to get hold of so I can programme something. I think I can do the coding, it was interpreting what was supposed to happen in real life and translating that into code that was tricky! Actually I'm wondering if we can't come up with something flexible in case the layout changes, and certainly with a "reset" button just incase the treadles get in triggered out of sequence (although I suppose you could go and depress the treadles by hand). Was there some form of indicator light on the control? or should we set one up for the signalman's benefit? We'll be making signalbox indicators too at this rate

I note the signal arms have a "finest vitreous enamel" or something like that and quite an allowance is made for the paint thickness - I assume this is because they're outside in all weathers (which possibly some of these models won't be) - unless we want to stove enamel the arms? Just one of those thoughts I had....

[Eddyg]

1mm thick glass should be easy enough to get by buying microscope slides, £5 or £6 for 50. Curved cutting isn't that easy but I've done loco spectacle glasses by rough cutting to shape and finally finishing by grinding. If the retaining frame covers the edge of the glass then accuracy is less of an issue.

If you could give me drawings and dimensions for the D shackles and other bits for the signal operating wires I'll see what I can find.

Are we putting ladders, hoops and handrails on these signals? A drawing for each type would be required and they could be mass produced with the help of drilling jigs and each silver soldered up in a fixture. I would do these. I could probably devise a bender for the U bolts given a drawing for them.

On the signal arm bearing casting, should there also be a similar bearing at the bottom of the post that the balance arm rotates on? Balance weights in cast white metal?

Eddie

[Dave Noble]

Glad you may be able to help Chris, what is the maximum thickness of acrylic you can cut. If you can let me know, I'll order a little bit and send a dxf. Jonny, could you let us know what electrical components need to go with each signal, I can then arrange the cavities in the base to house them and get Chris to try cutting one.

1mm thick glass should be easy enough to get by buying microscope slides, £5 or £6 for 50. Curved cutting isn't that easy but I've done loco spectacle glasses by rough cutting to shape and finally finishing by grinding. If the retaining frame covers the edge of the glass then accuracy is less of an issue.

I've obviously not got the knack, as when I've tried to grind glass it just cracks, but it may be worth pursuing. I know I sometimes get carried away with detail, though I know I'm not the only one, but I had wondered if we could 3D print the rubber seals which hold the glass in place, as flexible resin is available. That would overcome edge problems, and give a bit of resilience to the mounting. It should make mounting or replacing them really easy as well.

Are we putting ladders, hoops and handrails on these signals? A drawing for each type would be required and they could be mass produced with the help of drilling jigs and each silver soldered up in a fixture. I would do these. I could probably devise a bender for the U bolts given a drawing for them.

I would certainly expect to fit ladders etc. I think it more sensible to get the stiles laser cut, they wouldn't be that expensive. I can do that, and then send them on to you Eddy for soldering. I've plenty of 1/16 welding rod for the rungs.

I'll send you drawings for the shackles etc and U bolts. I have a capstan, so should be able to turn U bolts out pretty smartly, and send them on for bending. Has anyone a preference for brass or steel for these?

On the signal arm bearing casting, should there also be a similar bearing at the bottom of the post that the balance arm rotates on? Balance weights in cast white metal?

Yes, and yes. The balance lever plate as they call it will also need a drilling jig. I say that, as I think it better to cast such things without holes or centres, then drill them in a fixture to guarantee the positions of the holes, and therefore the fit to mating parts.

On arms I could fold them in brass or steel as channels then machine on the flange taper.

I was thinking that a laser cut blank could incorporate the tapers and mounting holes. A purpose built press tool (only needs to be 4 steel bars and two guides) would give good sharp corners in one hit. Once the tool is made, quick, easy, and cheap.

[Dave Noble]

This content has been added to The List.
Does anyone know how to delete a post?

[Richard Phillips]

If you want some close up photos of BR arms, you could do worse than check eBay, they come up from time to time, and what I didn't appreciate before I saw a drawing was the spectacle plate is pressed rather than cast. The links below show the welded stop on the back plus details like the "BR" lettering on top of the arm which is on the drawing.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-old- ... 1338315079
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-old- ... 1338319469

As for wire, I did happen upon some picture hanging stranded wire of a small cross section in my box of bits, but it doesn't seem as tidy as some of the stranded stuff you can get in small sizes.

I can silver solder parts together if it helps not burden any one constructor, as my involvement might end up being limited to helping the drive electronics for Shildon, if we're going the "kit of parts" route, which might be appropriate for anyone making their own custom gantries!

[Dave Noble]

Interesting links Richard, I use Ebay for all sorts, but hadn't thought of that.

Having made a couple of posts, it occurs to me that some may have difficulty machining 15mm tube, perhaps. Would anyone like me to machine their posts for them, if so, let me know and I'll get in the material and make a start, numbers based on Jonny's drawings, unless I hear otherwise from him first.

[Dave Noble]

Ben has suggested a get together at my place to chat about signals and stuff, on Saturday or Sunday 27/28th. Either day or time suits us both, so if any of you would like to come, please let me know, and first one to plumb for a day or time has it.

[Alan Wood]

Hi i dont know about anyone else but saturday morning would be better for me but what about anyone else

[Eddyg]

Dave,

Won't get to the meeting this weekend.

I've sourced materials for two signal posts, the larger size from ebay and a pal of mine came up with some 1/2" dia stainless tube (yes 0.500 inches). If I can't machine the large tube I will use his big lathe no problem.

On D shackles the smallest I can find are about 7mm x 4mm which is close to what we need ( 7.4 x 3.25) at £5.00 per 4, but they have a screwed pin rather than the split pin retention shown in the BR drawing. The supplier also does stainless steel cable in 0.8mm dia which is slightly over our scale requirement and quite expensive at £2.7/m, http://www.prime-miniatures.co.uk/catal ... t-shackles. I can't find any thimbles at this size. I guess we need a minimum of 4 shackles per signal i.e. servo to balance lever and balance lever to signal arm and about 600mm of cable each signal. Any ideas on making the loops at the cable ends? Once we have a signalling scheme we can quantify the requirements and generate a single order which will save on postage costs.

Eddie

[Dave Noble]

Thanks for that Eddy.

I've sent for some shackle and wire samples, I'll post pictures when they arrive. The wire is available very cheaply direct from China if we decide what size we want, balance between scale and being able to see to form it!

I did find some thimbles, but they were heart shaped so would be too small to take the shackles, or just way oversize if big enough to take them. We need some elongated ones really. It should be possible to make them from half round material, but I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. I wondered about not using them at all, and bending the wire around a former, binding with a bit of copper wire, then amalgamating the lot with a touch of silver solder. Thoughts.

[Dave Noble]

THE LIST

Now moved to the first post to make it easier to find.

[Dave Noble]

Meeting set for 11 0'clock, Sunday. Four attending so far.

[David Hale]

Dave.
I have been following with interest the postings. Regarding operating by servo or winch, have you considered car door operating solenoid motors? These are quite powerful and cheap. From various suppliers on Ebay they can be obtained for about £3 or less. 20MM of travel can be obtained. Direction can be reversed easiIy using a DPDT switch with diagonally opposite terminals wired together. It may be necessary to use a light spring to prevent the signal arm bouncing since the movement of the solenoid can be quite sharp. Alternatively, operate on a voltage lower than the designed 12 volts.

Best wishes.
David.

[Dave Noble]

David,
Thanks for the idea. I've had a look at them, but can't tell if they are motors or solenoids. If the latter, then they will be too vicious, and on my car they sound as if they are, but if they are motors it depends on their size and how slowly we can make them operate. The price is very interesting though.

[Guy Harding]

I will do my best to come along to the meeting at yours on Sunday,. Dave