Having got a good design for self contained LED lamps I want to make a batch for night running.
When I mean a batch it strikes me that I need a lot ie: a minimum of 4 for the loco to whatever design is applicable (BR/GWR etc), 3 for the brake van and these are to 2 different designs (the central one has one red lens whilst the outer two have two lenses facing back/front of white/red)
Question(s) is do I also need red and white ones for the loco? - what were the rules on lamps at the back whilst light engine?
The number of lamps on brake vans also seems a minefield dependant on the year and region. Are there any definative articles that I should study I cannot find an article in Turnout on the subject?
Why did the Southern have 5 lamp irons on their brake vans?
Any help would be appreciated
Mikeg
Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Mike,
I do not know the definitive answer here but i'll trry and explain how I understand it.
I'll start with the loco first.
I would expect that you would need no more than 3 white lamps and 1 red for the loco. The only time you would need 3 white lamps I believe would be for a Royal headcode or for some of the Southern region headcodes. The majority of the time you would be able to get away with just the 2.
If running light engine then you would need 1 white on the front (centre bufferbeam) and 1 on the back. The reasoning behind this is so that when the signalman see's the loco approaching, first of all he can check what the movement is in accordance with the headcode. Secondly he can tell where the end of the train is by the red light on the back. Obviously it is fairly easy to check that a light engine has passed through the secton as you can usually see the front and rear, however it is still a requirement to have the rear light as a light engine movement could include multiple engines and the signalman needs to be sure that all light engines have passed through the section.
So answer to your first question, yes 1 red lamp required. (It is however unlikely that you would use this on the loco at night because you would tend to be sat on the driving truck obscuring the lamp, you could however use it on the back of your driving truck when running light engine).
I guess the lamps are for your Metro tank (GWR region) and therefore you could potentially get away with just 2 lamps (unless you plan on entertaining Royalty?
)
Moving on to the breakvan.
Similarly the brakevan has a red light to confirm to the signalman that the whole train has passed through. If the signalman doesn't see a red light then it is possible that a portion of the train has become detatched and is left in section without the driver or fireman being aware of this.
As you say the number of lamps on the brakevan is dependant on the brakevan in question.
I believe that the 5 lamp brakets on the brakevan are to relicate the 5 on the front of southern region locos. I cannot think of any reason why you would display a headcode on the brakevan unless it was being propelled (which I would have thought was very rare!).
I would have thought you are well aware of the different Southern headcodes after seeing whats on your workbench, however I can probably find some references if required?
With regards to articles and possible further reading I can only think of Doug's article in EIM (cant remember which one) but i'm sure it only talks about construction of working lamps.
So night running at Gilling this year?
Hope this goes someway towards answering your questions
Best Wishes
Paul
I do not know the definitive answer here but i'll trry and explain how I understand it.
I'll start with the loco first.
I would expect that you would need no more than 3 white lamps and 1 red for the loco. The only time you would need 3 white lamps I believe would be for a Royal headcode or for some of the Southern region headcodes. The majority of the time you would be able to get away with just the 2.
If running light engine then you would need 1 white on the front (centre bufferbeam) and 1 on the back. The reasoning behind this is so that when the signalman see's the loco approaching, first of all he can check what the movement is in accordance with the headcode. Secondly he can tell where the end of the train is by the red light on the back. Obviously it is fairly easy to check that a light engine has passed through the secton as you can usually see the front and rear, however it is still a requirement to have the rear light as a light engine movement could include multiple engines and the signalman needs to be sure that all light engines have passed through the section.
So answer to your first question, yes 1 red lamp required. (It is however unlikely that you would use this on the loco at night because you would tend to be sat on the driving truck obscuring the lamp, you could however use it on the back of your driving truck when running light engine).
I guess the lamps are for your Metro tank (GWR region) and therefore you could potentially get away with just 2 lamps (unless you plan on entertaining Royalty?
)Moving on to the breakvan.
Similarly the brakevan has a red light to confirm to the signalman that the whole train has passed through. If the signalman doesn't see a red light then it is possible that a portion of the train has become detatched and is left in section without the driver or fireman being aware of this.
As you say the number of lamps on the brakevan is dependant on the brakevan in question.
I believe that the 5 lamp brakets on the brakevan are to relicate the 5 on the front of southern region locos. I cannot think of any reason why you would display a headcode on the brakevan unless it was being propelled (which I would have thought was very rare!).
I would have thought you are well aware of the different Southern headcodes after seeing whats on your workbench, however I can probably find some references if required?
With regards to articles and possible further reading I can only think of Doug's article in EIM (cant remember which one) but i'm sure it only talks about construction of working lamps.
So night running at Gilling this year?
Hope this goes someway towards answering your questions
Best Wishes
Paul
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Paul
many thanks for your comments - perhaps I should stick to S.R. only!
I had not thought of a brake van being propelled - hence the S.R. need for five brackets and no known picture of a van with the odd two in use !!
Will see you at Gilling and discuss further - meanwhile back to the project(s)
Mike
many thanks for your comments - perhaps I should stick to S.R. only!
I had not thought of a brake van being propelled - hence the S.R. need for five brackets and no known picture of a van with the odd two in use !!
Will see you at Gilling and discuss further - meanwhile back to the project(s)
Mike
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Mike,
There is a little adage - When is a train not a train? When it hasn't got a tail lamp!
Locomotives normally carried two lamps. Loco lamps have a red shade so when running light, one can be used as a tail lamp, and it was the fireman's duty to get down and change the shades when reversing direction.
Royal trains carried four lamps on the front (and two tail lamps - it wouldn't do for the monarch to be stopped if the tail lamp blew out!!)
Southern headcodes depicted the route, not the type of train, hence the need for six positions. By 1923 most of the companies had adopted the train description headcodes although there were many local exceptions.
GNR locos also had six lamp irons, two each side of the buffer beam, middle and top until about 1900 when the left inner was dispensed with. One of the lamp colours was purple for route indication. By 1923 the need for the right inner had gone also, but many locomotives retained it. For some reason the drawing office at Doncaster continued to draw the inner right lamp iron and it was fitted to new engines for many years after it became redundant. Notably K3s built by Armstrong Whitworth in 1937 still had five lamp irons.
By the late 50's most had disappeared but the corridor tender that had been built in 1928 for the W1 still had its double irons when it came into preservation with Union of South Africa.
Brake vans were frequently propelled when a loco was going to collect a train from a yard or colliery where there was no where to run round the train. It would be dropped in an adjacent siding and collected as the train was brought out. There were other solutions but these were not in the operations handbook!!
There is a little Ian Allan book in the abc series which lists all the BR head codes - particularly the Southern route indications and a few other deviations from the standard. Published in the sixties, it was reprinted a few years ago, but I was unable to find one on the internet in a brief search.
Looking forward to seeing your working lamps at Gilling, we can compare notes.
Hope this helps
Eddie
There is a little adage - When is a train not a train? When it hasn't got a tail lamp!
Locomotives normally carried two lamps. Loco lamps have a red shade so when running light, one can be used as a tail lamp, and it was the fireman's duty to get down and change the shades when reversing direction.
Royal trains carried four lamps on the front (and two tail lamps - it wouldn't do for the monarch to be stopped if the tail lamp blew out!!)
Southern headcodes depicted the route, not the type of train, hence the need for six positions. By 1923 most of the companies had adopted the train description headcodes although there were many local exceptions.
GNR locos also had six lamp irons, two each side of the buffer beam, middle and top until about 1900 when the left inner was dispensed with. One of the lamp colours was purple for route indication. By 1923 the need for the right inner had gone also, but many locomotives retained it. For some reason the drawing office at Doncaster continued to draw the inner right lamp iron and it was fitted to new engines for many years after it became redundant. Notably K3s built by Armstrong Whitworth in 1937 still had five lamp irons.
By the late 50's most had disappeared but the corridor tender that had been built in 1928 for the W1 still had its double irons when it came into preservation with Union of South Africa.
Brake vans were frequently propelled when a loco was going to collect a train from a yard or colliery where there was no where to run round the train. It would be dropped in an adjacent siding and collected as the train was brought out. There were other solutions but these were not in the operations handbook!!
There is a little Ian Allan book in the abc series which lists all the BR head codes - particularly the Southern route indications and a few other deviations from the standard. Published in the sixties, it was reprinted a few years ago, but I was unable to find one on the internet in a brief search.
Looking forward to seeing your working lamps at Gilling, we can compare notes.
Hope this helps
Eddie
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Eddie
Many thanks for advice - looks like other regions had variations on headcodes - I thought it was just us people brought up on the Southern !
I have half written a Turnout article re SR discs and their use but its such a minefield my head needs a rest so I will complete later.
Better get on with making all the the lamps I seem to need !
Mike
Many thanks for advice - looks like other regions had variations on headcodes - I thought it was just us people brought up on the Southern !
I have half written a Turnout article re SR discs and their use but its such a minefield my head needs a rest so I will complete later.
Better get on with making all the the lamps I seem to need !
Mike
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Mike,
Just checked the book and my loco spent it's last years with a disc bottom centre - Lyme Regis and Axminster!
I can't do all the SR codes because I only made two discs.
Your article sounds interesting, looking at photos from south of the Thames is always intriguing, wondering what the discs mean. Keep at it.
Regards
Eddie
Just checked the book and my loco spent it's last years with a disc bottom centre - Lyme Regis and Axminster!
I can't do all the SR codes because I only made two discs.
Your article sounds interesting, looking at photos from south of the Thames is always intriguing, wondering what the discs mean. Keep at it.
Regards
Eddie
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Eddy - just to further complicate the issue those of us using SR brake vans should really only use the two top tail lamps on them. They only placed lamps on the central one when they strayed onto 'other' railways. The Isle of Wight vans for instance did not have a central bracket fitted - not much point as they were hardly likely to stray !
Only once BR came along did the third lamp became the standard on southern metals.
Perhaps I should add something about lamps to the disc article ? - probably regret saying that !
Mike
Only once BR came along did the third lamp became the standard on southern metals.
Perhaps I should add something about lamps to the disc article ? - probably regret saying that !
Mike
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Eddy ( and all those who have been following this saga)
I have completed the project and have a full set of working lamps - will bring to Gilling in May for inspection. This also includes making a'Tipton' GWR work.
Article on head codes and lamps (S.R. orientated) is with Dave Noble for his consideration for Turnout.
Regards
Mike G
I have completed the project and have a full set of working lamps - will bring to Gilling in May for inspection. This also includes making a'Tipton' GWR work.
Article on head codes and lamps (S.R. orientated) is with Dave Noble for his consideration for Turnout.
Regards
Mike G
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Brake vans had lamps showing white forward on both sides of the van for the driver to check it was still behind these showed red to the rear . When a train was in a passing loop then the side nearest the through running line was changed to white to show the passing train that the goods train was clear of the running line so three lights are required for a guards van at least ! I think Cambridge shunting loco "an O8 " had a red and white light at both ends all the time so the signal man could keep track of it
Brent
Brent
-
Dave Harris
- Engine Driver
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:27 pm
- Location: Frome
Re: Loco and Brake Van Lamps
Further to Brent's note above regarding the use of lights, i quote from the BR Rule Book, 1950 edition:
each train when on any running line must always have a tail lamp, properly cleaned and trimmed and attatched to the rear of the last vehicle, and this lamp will furnish evidence to the signalman and others that the train is complete. After sunset, or during fog or falling snowm or when the block apparatus has failed in a section where there is a tunnel, or where otherwise provided, the tail lamp must be alight and show a red light, and, except in the case of passenger and other trains composed of coaching stock, fully fitted frieght trains, and light engines, two red side lights must also be carried.
freight trains with the exception of fully fitted trains must carry side lights showing a white light forward on the brake van after sunset or during fog, or falling snow; the indications to the rear must be as follows:
on main lines, fast lines and single lines - Two red lights
On slow lines, relief lines, or goods lines adjoining main or fast lines, and running in the same direction - one red light on side furthest away from the main line and one white light on the side nearest the main or fast line.
On goods lines adjoining slow or releif lines, and running in the same direction - two red lights.
on reception sidings, or loops controlled from one signal box - the side lamps must be removed or obscured when the train has passed into the loop or siding.
Where side lights are shown to be carried, the side lamps must be in position during daylight as well as during darkness.
Mixed trains must carry side lights as laid down for frieght trains.
Engines employed exclusivly in shunting at stations and yards must after sunset, or during fog or falling snow, carry one red and one white light, both at the front and rear, one over each buffer.
There are more rules regarding lights for engines wthout a train, assisting a train, trains 'broken' during shunting and left in sidings, its quite an art in itself!
each train when on any running line must always have a tail lamp, properly cleaned and trimmed and attatched to the rear of the last vehicle, and this lamp will furnish evidence to the signalman and others that the train is complete. After sunset, or during fog or falling snowm or when the block apparatus has failed in a section where there is a tunnel, or where otherwise provided, the tail lamp must be alight and show a red light, and, except in the case of passenger and other trains composed of coaching stock, fully fitted frieght trains, and light engines, two red side lights must also be carried.
freight trains with the exception of fully fitted trains must carry side lights showing a white light forward on the brake van after sunset or during fog, or falling snow; the indications to the rear must be as follows:
on main lines, fast lines and single lines - Two red lights
On slow lines, relief lines, or goods lines adjoining main or fast lines, and running in the same direction - one red light on side furthest away from the main line and one white light on the side nearest the main or fast line.
On goods lines adjoining slow or releif lines, and running in the same direction - two red lights.
on reception sidings, or loops controlled from one signal box - the side lamps must be removed or obscured when the train has passed into the loop or siding.
Where side lights are shown to be carried, the side lamps must be in position during daylight as well as during darkness.
Mixed trains must carry side lights as laid down for frieght trains.
Engines employed exclusivly in shunting at stations and yards must after sunset, or during fog or falling snow, carry one red and one white light, both at the front and rear, one over each buffer.
There are more rules regarding lights for engines wthout a train, assisting a train, trains 'broken' during shunting and left in sidings, its quite an art in itself!